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Episode 58: Breastfeeding for Nourishment and Comfort with Hareem Sumbul

, , October 9, 2021

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Jacqueline Kincer  0:03

Hey, everyone is Jacqueline Kincer here from The Breastfeeding Talk Podcast. And I give you some great information about today’s episode. This is actually something I did back in August for World breastfeeding week. I had Hareem Sumbul reached out to me from LACT nation to basically do a q&a session with her for her support group that she runs. And it was honestly just such an excellent experience. And I like how we got into some uncommon questions about breastfeeding. So when we finished this interview, I asked her if it would be okay for me to air. This was one of my podcast episodes, and she was more than happy to allow me to share. So thank you Hareem for doing that, and if you’d like to follow Hareem I will link up her information in the show notes. But she’s at LACT nation on Instagram. And just to give you an overview, here’s some of the things we discussed. We talked about, you know, the composition of breast milk and how does it vary and keep up with the baby’s needs? What role does the maternal diet have to play in that we actually first connected on babywearing, so we discuss ways that baby wearing can support a breastfeeding mother and her child. We talk about the comforting aspects of breastfeeding because it’s so much more than food. It’s more than nourishment. It’s also nurturing the baby. We also talked about the Mother, how is breastfeeding a comfort for the mother as well as her baby. And why is comforting. So looked down upon when we talk about raising small babies. It seems like there’s definitely been this movement in many cultures all over the world to decrease the baby’s reliance on the mother. But this goes against our innate biology. It goes against what we need for secure emotional development. So we have a great conversation about that. And then finally, we sort of end up talking about oral anatomy and latch and what role that plays. So it’s a fascinating conversation, we do a deep dive through things. And honestly, it’s just one of my favorites. So I’m excited to play this episode for you this interview that I did for LACT nation for World breastfeeding week. Here it is, and enjoy. So welcome to this


Hareem Sumbul  3:06

session. Jacqueline, thank you so much for joining us. Today we will be talking about breastfeeding, with reference to breastfeeding being a source of nourishment, as well as comfort. Jacqueline Kincer is joining me from holistic lactation, I love her page, if you are on Instagram, or even on Facebook, you can go join you can go follow. She shares some lovely, lovely content, which is extremely helpful for new mothers, as well as I mean older mothers who are breastfeeding and so no information is bad at any stage. Hello, Jack Hi,


Jacqueline Kincer  3:46

hurry, I’m great. I’m so excited to be here and just, you know, share what I know with everyone who’s watching. So this is going to be a lot of fun.


Hareem Sumbul  3:59

Yay. So, um, without further ado, let me also say that she’s not just an ibclc, as it says in the title, but she is also a see Sam, which can you can you


Jacqueline Kincer  4:14

explain? Ah, yeah, it’s um, I’m a certified specialist in orofacial myology, which is really just its own separate discipline dealing with the structure of the mouth and the function of the mouth. So that’s, um, it could be all ages, but obviously I focus on babies. So the way they latch the way they suck the way they swallow the way they breathe while they’re doing those things as well as even just their overall posture. So I focus on a lot of the mechanics of feeding, whether it’s bottles or breast, how the muscles are moving, how the joints move, things like that because it has quite a bit to do with how well they’re going to do with feeding. So that Something that I combine with the breastfeeding and lactation work that I do.


Hareem Sumbul  5:08

I think that’s fantastic. Because like we were talking earlier as well, there’s a lot of so when we talk about latching and oral anatomy, as let’s say, lactation professionals or skilled lactation support workers, we would consider that latch one on one or one or two, but what you’re getting into is like a 400 level course. It we get to compare


Jacqueline Kincer  5:34

that girl, right? Yeah, it’s so it’s definitely the next level. It’s above and beyond what I learned when I became a lactation consultant, for sure. antastic


Hareem Sumbul  5:46

So moving on, um, let’s start by talking about breast milk as a source of nourishment, you know, let’s talk composition. And also, how does burying composition keep up with the baby and the growth? And does maternal diet have a role to play? Because that kind of question keeps popping up very often, you know? Or if I eat this, will my if I eat more fats? Will my milk Pakia? If I eat that, you know, would it harm the child? So how closely is it LinkedIn? Is there like a minimum threshold of all you have to eat XYZ things to hit like a minimum baseline requirement?


Jacqueline Kincer  6:30

Such a good question. You know, I usually like to start by saying that any breast milk is better than no breast milk. So I would never want someone to think that because they had a poor diet, that their breast milk isn’t good enough, and somehow formula would be better. So and I say that because breast milk is a living tissue, it is more than food. And so formulas, only food. So for instance, you know, the stem cells, the anti tumor cells, the, you know, living probiotic bacteria, the prebiotics that you can’t get anywhere else other than human milk. All of those things are also in human milk that cannot be replicated anywhere else, they can’t be supplemented by giving your baby probiotics. So it’s really important to acknowledge that even if you do have a poor diet, still, your breast milk will be beneficial to your child. But that being said, I don’t want to encourage anybody to have a poor diet, diet does matter, what you eat is, you know, changes the composition of your milk. And not only that, let’s say that your milk composition, for the most part will will just be what your baby needs. But if you’re not getting those needs met through your diet, they will be taken from the stores in your body. So if you don’t eat enough calcium, that calcium will come out of your bones, your bones will release that calcium into your bloodstream and into your breast milk. And so you want to make sure you’re getting adequate calcium, for instance, in your diet so that you are not getting depleted. So there’s there’s a couple of factors there. But in terms of the question about fat, for instance, there is this idea that if someone needs more fat, that their breast milk will then be fattier. And that’s just not true. So the type of fat you eats will determine the type of fat that’s in your breast milk. So you should be eating the good fats, because that’s what you want your baby to get. And those are important for their brain development. But actually, if you wanted to have more fat and your breast milk, you would want to increase your protein intake, that’s what will give you more fat in your breast milk. But worrying about how much fat is in your breast milk is is kind of a moot point because your body is only going to make the milk that your baby needs. So most of the time, what I tell women is you want to eat a diet that is similar in composition to your breast milk. When we talk about the macros. So carbohydrates, fats, and protein breast milk is generally not that high in protein, but eating high protein diet will be helpful for you. But you do want to eat a fair number of carbs that might make up 30% of your diet. Help healthy carbohydrates ideally rice is great rice is also excellent for your milk production. potatoes, sweet potatoes, there’s you know, squashes any kind of starchy vegetable like that is also really great. Lots of grains are great. If you’re able to tolerate those, and again, they help with milk production as well so your baby will feed frequently. A lot of times moms will notice as soon as the baby starts eating, they’re suddenly very hungry or thirsty. That’s really normal. That’s just your body saying hey, I need more food you burn way more calories breastfeeding than you do during pregnancy. So it’s not a free for all for you to just go eat a ton of food and eat junk food but everything thing in moderation. It’s okay to eat things that aren’t super healthy for you. But also make sure that you are eating things that are healthy and nourishing for you. So I hope that that helps. But the milk composition changes from feeding to feeding from beginning of feed to the end of the feed, and your baby is going to send that signal to your body and get what it needs. You just want to make sure you’re putting back in your body those things that your baby took.


Hareem Sumbul  10:26

Yeah, so to sum it all up, it’s actually when we talk about maternal diet, we’re ideally, really focusing on the mother’s health, health by itself, right? It’s not about what the baby will get, because what the baby needs, they will get it out. Right? It’s just that you don’t you don’t want to be depleted in one specific area, right? You don’t want to have less of that, which is why we say that, you know, in absence of availability of breastfeeding, specific multivitamins, maybe continue having your prenatal multivitamins, because that’s the case in Pakistan, you barely you, I don’t think there’s anywhere that you would get a specific breastfeeding multivitamin. But you know, in that case, whatever you were taking during your pregnancy, that is good to go. And you also you have somewhat a balanced intake, and you’re doing everything to keep yourself maintained in terms of health and in terms of your own body stores, where they’re required for you as as an individual, because, you know, the baby will get the bare minimum. Exactly,


Jacqueline Kincer  11:35

exactly. And yes, in terms of vitamins and things, you don’t have to do anything special. I don’t know that there are really many different quantities of things in breastfeeding vitamins that we might have in the US, and there’s really not many of them, I can only think of a couple. So yes, just take the pre meal, even if it’s just a regular multivitamin, that’s fine, too.


Hareem Sumbul  12:01

Absolutely, absolutely. So coming back to how we connected, I mean, we connected first on babywearing. And, you know, for those who are new to the idea of baby wearing it is that you have either a large stretchy material, or something of that sort, which is which you can get from different brands around the world, different parts of the world. But it can really just be any cloth. And there’s a technique by which you can tie the baby to yourself or there are specific carriers. You can wear the baby using a specific carrier that again, many brands do that. You can look it up, you can look it up in the group, it’s been discussed a couple of times, as well. But Jacqueline and I connected over baby wearing and both of us we used to well, we used to wear our babies until they were much older. So okay, here’s the question know, what are the different ways that babywearing can you know, it supports a breastfeeding mother and child? I mean, I can understand that. It’s, it’s comfortable and all of that. And it’s easier you have your hands free and you have a baby to take care of. But where do we connect it to breastfeeding? And, you know, how is it? You know, valuable for a breastfeeding? Yeah,


Jacqueline Kincer  13:23

there’s there’s a lot of ways really one is that anytime the baby is close to the breast or able to do skin to skin, even if it’s just a cheek to the mother’s chest, that is really valuable for reinforcing that instinct, they have to go to the breast, especially if a baby is taking both bottles and breast. Right. So you want them to prefer the bottle unless that’s your goal. Most people have that goal, they would you know, they want their baby to still latch. So doing that having that closeness and time that it isn’t always just about being fed. But it’s also a place of comfort. That’s really key for just keeping the breastfeeding relationship strong. The other part of it is that babies who are in a baby carrier have really good posture reinforced and their posture has a lot to do with breastfeeding, having that free motion of their neck to tilt that so that they can have a deep latch at the breast. Building a little bit of that core strength, similar to why you want to do tummy time and a lot of ways where they’re able to get their torso against something and and sort of push back. They can sleep in the carrier which is great because in terms of breastfeeding and whatnot, that close exposure of them to your breasts can signal to your breasts, additional needs that baby might have, whether it’s fluctuations in their temperature or their breathing. There are ways that our bodies are wise beyond what science is even really discovered yet, but we know that having your baby close to you close to your breast changes what goes into your breast milk. So I don’t exactly know how that works. But it we know, it works. So it’s been? Yeah, yeah, like, let’s say your baby has been exposed to a bacteria or a virus or something. And now they’re able to communicate with your body however, that magic works, and your body can now make antibodies for that. So that kind of thing is really amazing in terms of even just, you know, the breast milk, because we just talked about that. But really, for me, it’s just keeping the breastfeeding relationship strong, keeping the breast is safe, friendly place for the babies so that they don’t develop some sort of aversion or preference to the bottle. And then again, their posture, when they’re in that position of a baby carrier, they just get so much more movement and movement is really important. We live very sedentary lives a lot of the time, right moms are sitting down to nurse their babies. And I totally get that, especially in the early days, there’s nothing wrong with it. But truthfully, as humans, we are meant to hold our babies in arms and to nurse them on the go. And many moms struggle to master that because it’s just not something that most people are doing unless you are maybe working in an agricultural setting and you have a baby, and you’re just, you know, I just don’t see it happen a lot. A lot of times, there’s a lot of, you know, you should you should rest and sit initially, there’s that initial postpartum period where that’s really important. But beyond that, with a three month old baby, you shouldn’t have to sit down and get the nursing pillow and the whole setup every time. So learn you to have your baby build strength, by getting their body in motion along with your body is going to help breastfeeding go better. It’s to make breastfeeding less restrictive for you. You don’t want to be six months, you know, out still breastfeeding, and oh, the baby’s hungry, let me go find a quiet place since. And if you want to do that, that’s fine. But you shouldn’t be chained to that is sort of my point. So breastfeeding allows your baby to develop much more strength allows them to practice latching themselves instead of you always having to do that for them. And really just getting a deep latch as well with with that muscle development that they get.


Hareem Sumbul  17:21

And I also think because I’ve been because I’ve also been baby bearing when my child was younger, and it comes in really handy when you’re traveling. I mean, and it kind of works as a cover, when it’s not actually a cover because both myself and my husband were very claustrophobic. And as a result, our child would never do well with a cover. You know, the second I would even put a sheer cover on talking to like, I don’t want this. She just could just freak out altogether. So a baby wearing was great because nobody can really see anything. But the baby’s in that. If she wants, you know, I just pop things aside. And yeah, she goes, open buffet. That’s what would happen. So um, I think it’s very nice. It’s very, it’s okay for, you know, when when it’s tricky for a person to breastfeed openly. I mean, I’m all for it for publicly breastfeeding wherever you’re comfortable in. But then there are people who are also bashful. They don’t want to do it publicly. They’re a little shy, and there’s nothing wrong with that, of course. So this really helped me at least, you know, because I’d be on on a tube in the underground on in London. And I’d go like, okay, my child is going to cry anytime now. And people sitting next to me won’t know that my child is feeling inside. So yeah, it’s pretty it is


Jacqueline Kincer  18:52



Hareem Sumbul  18:58

It is, it is a feeding on the stealth. So I really like that as Yeah, as well. Um, okay. So, again, another thing that we usually discuss on the group, and it pops up very often and I’ve written, you know, I’ve written a lot about it as well, you know, multiple times, is the comforting aspect and which which is what, you know, brings me back to the main topic of this session, you know, along with nourishment, we are talking about comfort. So the comforting aspect of breastfeeding, I feel that it’s not being spoken off as much as it should be. And somehow any kind of comfort. I mean, that we’re getting out of breastfeeding somehow. It’s being looked down at so Oh, you don’t let’s Can you can you just don’t shed some light on the comforting aspect of breastfeeding for the baby. And does that actually have a real role to play in the nourishment? The growth, mental physical either way, whatever, you know comes to mind. What do you see?


Jacqueline Kincer  20:06

Yeah, I love that question. So before I became a lactation consultants, I was a la leche, league leader. And one of the things that I loved in their messaging was that breastfeeding is a way of mothering your child. And I really, really, that’s true. And I think that we’ve really gotten away from that, where breastfeeding is just seen as food. And it’s unfortunate. And I think it happens because breast pumps have gotten so popular, right? So we can just pump the milk and give the baby a bottle. And now just lack of support overall for breastfeeding moms, especially in health care. So the focus has turned it more into this thing of food. But breastfeeding to me is like 20%, food and 80% everything else. And it’s, it’s, it’s comfort for your baby. Whether they’re overtired, they’re not feeling well. They’re just emotionally upset. They’re scared. They’re whatever it may be. Breastfeeding is that tool of comforting your child. And I tell people, it is the easiest thing in the world. You don’t even need to figure out what your baby needs. They either need a diaper change, they need to go to sleep. But even if they need to go to sleep, breastfeeding will probably be the answer to that problem there hurts breastfeed them. They’re there. You know, they’re sad, breastfeed, but like anything that your child is experiencing your baby, you can breastfeed them and pretty much solve that problem. I felt like I was at such a loss when my children stopped breastfeeding, because I was like, I don’t know how to


Hareem Sumbul  21:44

fix the problems. That’s exactly what I was about to say, because I breastfed mine till she was three years old. And beyond that, I was like, Oh, my God, my biggest problem solving tool is gone. I mean, how am I going to figure out how to fix things? Because I don’t know another way? I mean, I’m not smart enough to figure out what?


Jacqueline Kincer  22:07

To do this.


Hareem Sumbul  22:09

It’s just yeah, that you agree, you know? Sorry, you say,


Jacqueline Kincer  22:19

oh, no, I was gonna say to that you’re when you breastfeed your child, you teach them this skill of emotional regulation. So somehow, through BB books and men that are not experts in babies, or breastfeeding at all, they’ve decided to put this idea out there that babies consults do, they’ll get a bad habit if they’re constantly responded to, and, you know, just all this kind of stuff. And there’s been a movement against that movement of teaching people about attachment parenting, and what is normal, you know, human infant child development, and then even adult psychology coming back and teaching people how to reparent themselves because of their neglected needs as children, right. So if we meet our child’s needs early on, and we are immediately or as immediately as possible, responsive to our babies, we teach them how to get their needs met, when you withhold something, when you think that you can provide another way of soothing other than the thing that your child is, is biologically hardwired to ask for which is breastfeeding, then you’re teaching them that their needs don’t need to get met, or they don’t, they’re not allowed to get their needs met in the way that they truly need them to be met. And you teach them to doubt themselves. You teach them to not trust you to meet their needs. And this could be really minor it could be while you feel like you should have some sort of a feeding schedule. So you’re going to make your baby wait another 30 minutes to feed and give them the pacifier. In the meantime, something as simple as that teaches your baby to question what their body is telling them. And it’s very simple. It’s a feedback loop. Their brains are simple. It’s input output. So they’re crying. They’re saying, I want to go to the breast. Okay, mom is not offering that to me right now. She’s offering me something else, I must have been wrong, I must not need the breast. And they just that’s what their brain wires for. So now, I get a lot of people who will say, Well, I did you know, XY and Z type of training or scheduling or whatever with my baby, and they turned out fine. The problem is, is that the baby appears to be fine on the outside. But realistically, what’s going on in their mind is a lot of uncertainty, a lot of disconnection with their own intuition. And this will present itself later in childhood and adulthood through numerous issues. So the foundation of our child’s psychological well being starts with breastfeeding starts with responsive caregiving and parenting. And again, breastfeeding is so much more than just the food right? And it’s that time like, when you’re breastfeeding and your child is there latched at the breast and they’re they’re falling asleep or they’re looking in your eyes. or maybe their hand is gripping your thumb, or they’re, you know, touching your chest or whatever, these are some of the most compassionate moments that we can offer our child’s that make them feel safe, that make them feel loved. And there’s just so much nonverbal communication going on. When we, we don’t have that it, we have to work so much harder to provide that to our child through all these other means. So to me breastfeed is sort of like this all in one package. And you’re doing so much for your child to learn how to be a resilient, stable, mentally well person through the rest of their lives.


Hareem Sumbul  25:41

Absolutely, and I’ve spoken to more than a few therapists, and they agree with it completely, that more than 90% of the cases that come to them as adults, you know, coming in with their issues, more than 90% of that those are stemmed stemming from attachment issues in their childhood, where their needs were not met, or they were not responded to immediately or as soon as possible, or whatever. And you know, that that actually turns you into an that’s, that’s the kind of thing that I usually kind of relate to when you’re talking about organ weaknesses and things that settle in if you’re not breastfeeding. And if you’re giving artificial milk and all of those things, you know, you’re you’re putting a lot more burden on your kidneys, and you know, all of those things are a baby. And, you know, those things will not appear in any shape or form immediately, you know, you say, Oh, I gave my child formula turned out fine. They didn’t turn out fine. They got a kidney stone when they were 18. It’s just that it’s so far apart, that you do not you’re not able to connect the dots. Right? Right. It’s just so far removed in happening that, you know, nobody thinks that when a 24 year old comes in with with a heart issue, or with a kidney issue or the issue, nobody would have connecting that old were they breastfed or formula fed? We don’t think like that we don’t think long term, right? So similarly, it’s also it’s no different when it comes to psychology, everything. It’s not just physical well being. It’s not just physical health, that you’re giving a good baseline for when you’re breastfeeding. It’s also psychological well being it’s also the psychological kickoff of life that you’re providing with the comfort that comes with breastfeeding. And I think that’s very important. Like, like you said, I love that and I’m gonna you keep using that 80% It’s just 20% food. It’s 80% everything else. So yeah, I think I think comfort is probably the biggest thing that we get out of breastfeeding apart from keeping our babies alive. You know,


Jacqueline Kincer  28:00

I totally agree. So, so well, like some duck by you.


Hareem Sumbul  28:08

So, okay, so what about the mother? You know, let’s talk a little about when we’re talking about comfort, is that a two way street? Is that is that comfort doing anything for the mother? Whether it’s, you know, or modally? Or physically or psychologically? What does?


Jacqueline Kincer  28:29

Yeah, absolutely. It actually it actually does a lot. I think that some mothers don’t allow themselves to receive that comfort, they, they sometimes have this idea that breastfeeding is them giving something to the child, but it is a very reciprocal relationship. So it starts with hormones. So when your milk is flowing, and you’re having that letdown, there’s an oxytocin release, but it isn’t just limited to the breast. It affects your brain and your whole well being and many mothers will notice a feeling of sleepiness sometimes or just more relaxation. But then I think that there’s this sort of, instead of the heart letting, letting things enjoy themselves, the head comes in and says, Oh, but I could be doing this or after I’m done with this thing I need to put on the laundry or great like, there’s this thing and and so you know, if I just say enjoy, enjoy it, enjoy the feeling, get relaxed, you know, and it’s kind of like we know when people, pet dogs or cats, their blood pressure is lowered. Right? It’s very similar. Your blood pressure will lower your stress levels lower when you’re holding your baby and especially when you’re breastfeeding your baby. So that moments you know it’s for you as well. It is not just for your baby, your baby wants you to enjoy breastfeeding them. They don’t want you to feel like a cow. They don’t want you to feel touched out. They want you to enjoy that connection with them. They had it inside of your womb right there there. They can’t go anywhere. They have no choice, you have no choice until they’re born. Now, they still be very closely connected to you. And most moms want to be very connected to their children too. So there is a hormonal response, there’s, you know, dopamine level changes in the brain. And you generally get this very nice feel good feeling when you’re breastfeeding your baby, when breastfeeding is not going well, you won’t have that feeling necessarily. And so that’s why it’s so important to get help with breastfeeding problems. If you are, if you are one of those moms who says I’m really just not enjoying this or my baby doesn’t seem to be enjoying it, that’s a sign of a problem. It doesn’t have to be lack of weight gain, or breast pain or something like that, it could be that neither of you seem to be enjoying it, or one of you doesn’t. And we know that that is something that we can intervene and work on. So yes, the comfort is huge. And, you know, I said, you know, we’re meant to nurse our babies and arms and walk around, not all the time, though, it is also a time for your body to rest for you to sit down for you to lay down for you to relax, for your body to recover and heal from birth your your baby nursing at the breast helps contract your uterus and bring it back to a normal pre pregnancy size that helps to heal the wounds left from the placenta being attached to the uterus. And of course, that’s early on postpartum. But there’s so many good things that it’s doing for your body. And if we want to even talk about health as well, that movement of milk through the breast, the movements of the breast from your baby, touching it from you touching it from you squeezing it, massaging it, whatever, it’s all very, very preventive of stagnation of the lymph, which is preventive of breast cancer and other complications. So ultimately, you get so much benefits, whether it’s emotional comfort, or your health or protection against cancer protection against osteoporosis, diabetes, so many things. So please, please take advantage of breastfeeding for yourself to


Hareem Sumbul  32:01

absolutely, and this reminds me really because No, before my child was born, I was I was in a, I was in a very fast paced career. So I, I’m an accountant, and I was working in the corporate sector for nearly 20 years by then, and my life was all firefighting, I would wake up and I would go to work, and there was no time for me to come back. I mean, there was, I would just work full days, and I would come back, I’d crash just to wake up and go back to work again. And that was my 20 years, you know, so it’s just that when, when my child was born, and I decided to breastfeed her, she would, you know, periodically, I would have to retreat, and relax, and breastfeed while I wasn’t really doing too much. And she was doing all the work, and I was just sitting there. And in the beginning, that really, really winds you up, when you’re a very, you know, high strung person, or you’re, you’re used to constantly working and keeping, you know, making yourself useful or being productive. And that’s, that’s something that we all get sucked into, you know, living in the world of today, we all get sucked into, oh, let’s not waste time. What am I doing? Why am I not doing 25 things at the same time? You know, I’m not, I’m not reaching my full potential, you know, those are the those are the messages that we get from around us. But I think one thing that breastfeeding got me back into was giving myself time and, you know, just sometimes just sit without doing anything. I mean, of course, there were times that I would be scrolling on Facebook, or reading a book or doing something or the other, or just, you know, doing something for the child herself or whatever. But there would be times where I would literally not do anything, and those times are probably the most empowering in my life so far, because that is when you it’s, you know, when things go quiet, then you get to hear yourself, then you get to hear what you’re thinking. And I think as human beings, we all owe it to each other. We’ve just taken up too much, even as women, we’ve taken up too much load on ourselves, we need to do this, we need to do that we need to, we need to show the world that we can do everything a man can tell we can do a lot more than that if we start listening to ourselves. Seriously, I was reading what you mentioned, it reminded me of a client who came back a couple of weeks ago, and her child was probably like 20 days old or something. And even in the note she left for me when she booked the session. She was like please don’t judge, please don’t be harsh. And I was like, where’s all of this coming from? I mean, I was carrying up just reading what she had to write and when I met her when I met her and I was like okay, well What’s happening. And it’s


Jacqueline Kincer  35:01

it turned out that,


Hareem Sumbul  35:02

you know, her parents or people around her, they weren’t letting her hold the baby, they were saying that you’re gonna spoil the baby and you don’t hold the baby or, you know, you’re gonna mess things up for yourself even. She’s like, I don’t know, I don’t know how this works. But whenever I told her, I feel better, I feel calm. And I was like, Honey, your body’s telling you something, listen, you know, it’s really all you need. I mean, you know, all that anxiety and everything. It’s not that, you know, it’s not that having the baby or it’s a pee mag situation, or something of that sort is kicking off, or it’s Diemer. Or there’s something related to breastfeeding, or the baby that’s kicking off that anxiety. It’s what, you know, it’s keeping the child away, that is kicking it off. Hold the baby, literally, that’s all I had to say tonight. No, just


Jacqueline Kincer  35:56

hold the baby. Right? I it’s so it’s so simple. And I think we look outside of ourselves, we will look to books to experts, to other moms to family, you know, and we’re trying to have all this input the pediatrician, whoever. And I’m like, sometimes just sit there and like you said, Be silent with yourself, but also just watch your baby tune into them. They’re telling you something breastfeeding is communication, not just with your body, but there’s this other level that’s happening there. Watch the baby, are they happy? Are they enjoying this, then that’s all you need to know, some book is not going to tell you what your baby is doing at the breast. And so I just wish, I think that’s probably you too, right? We see that a big part of our jobs. It’s just reassuring mothers that their instincts that they’ve had longer, right, and that they should listen to those more. Because they come to us, like, tell me what to do you know, enough. Like, I think you kind of already know you do some validation. Sometimes I don’t even tell them anything they haven’t heard before. But they hear it from me, and then they believe it or, you know, it’s it’s very, very interesting how that works. Not every mother but it does


Hareem Sumbul  37:11

happen a lot. It does happen quite often. And it’s just, um, it’s sad how we’ve been able to convince each other and mothers and people through generations that oh, you know, a mother does not know best, but it’s just such, you know, instinct, I feel is even to a teething baby. I mean, a lot of times I would say that, Okay, final, they are going to have green poop. It’s the pH of the stomach that’s changing because of the drool. You know, some things are gonna happen. But, you know, if if it’s bothering you, if you’re having, you know, a moment there with it, go for a stool test, go for an occult, I mean, if, if that’s what’s gonna put you at ease, never ever underestimate a mother’s instinct. If a mother is saying that there’s something going on with my child, then listen to yourself, listen to the mother. And you don’t just check it off. Even if it’s all right. You need to be sure that it’s alright. It’s okay. To have that assurance. That’s the kind of instinct that has kept babies alive. Yes. Yes. So okay, coming to down to the last question, but definitely not the least. I will be pulling in your oral anatomy proud dress. And we would like to hear a little about, you know, just if oral anatomy and a correct latch, does it have a role to play in nourishment and comfort? And if yes, if you could touch upon a yes,


Jacqueline Kincer  38:51

yes, it has so much to do with it. It’s interesting, I went to a conference once where they asked lactation consultants, because we were learning about the oral anatomy as well. And you know, what would be at the end of the day? What’s more important the breast milk, or the correct function of breastfeeding, the motor mechanics of it? And it was a really, really hard question to answer because they’re both so beneficial. When things are going well. So really, when a baby is latched to the breast, we don’t want to deep latch just because that looks better or feels better. It’s because it is typically easier for the baby to get the milk that way the breast gets the proper stimulation to continue to make the milk the baby needs. But really the breast tissue breasts obviously squishy, they’re malleable, right? It goes in the baby’s mouth and the baby’s oral anatomy shapes the breasts to their mouth. But there’s also it’s not that the breast is is totally some sort of deflated balloon there is a bit of a structure to it with the tissue and the fat and all of that right So some of that goes in and it’s it shapes the baby’s mouth, it grows, the jaw grows the airway. And it trains their tongue for solid foods for speech for all the other things later in life that that tongue is going to need to do. So when we have that good latch, the breast comes in, it kind of kind of spreads out, right, you know, the mouth is sort of wide from side to side, the breast kind of comes in like that. And it goes deep in the mouth, ideally, hopefully. And when it does that, it broadens their palate, the roof of their mouth. And that is going to grow that jaw forward and wide so that the teeth come in with plenty of spacing that they erupt with, really no issues are not on top of each other. And when that upper jaw grows, the lower jaw follows. And now when the baby’s mouth is open really wide at the breasts, that jaw has to come forward. And it moves in a forward like motion as the tongue is moving to extract the milk. When a baby sucks on a pacifier or a bottle, it generally moves in a backwards motion because they’re using suction, more of a sucking to extract the milk Milk rather than this nice wave like motion of the tongue that is going to gently create a pressure differential to draw the milk in. So that forward movement, that jaw, that mid face grows forward, and makes plenty of room for a nice wide airway behind the jaw. That’s really important for their breathing, to prevent things like snoring, sleep apnea, behavioral issues, because they don’t breathe, well sleep, other sleep issues because they’re not breathing well, of course swallowing food and not choking on it and swallowing milk and not choking on it. So there’s a lot of sort of, you know, bone growth and mechanics and muscle changes that happen because of breastfeeding. And it’s sort of like the DNA is there to program the growth. But the growth won’t happen to its full potential without the right mechanical input. So breastfeeding is really that big Foundation. The other thing that’s important about that is that if that palette is getting that stimulation of the breast on it, there’s a little spot up there, it’s kind of in the same place for every baby. But if they use a bottle, it’s probably not going to get as much stimulation as it could. And when that is stimulated, that baby is calmed and comforted because their pituitary gland releases serotonin, which is that neurotransmitter that’s responsible for us having a feeling of well being right, a lot of antidepressants will increase serotonin levels, so does that it also stimulates them to release growth hormone. So your baby is going to grow as they should, because they’re getting proper growth hormone stimulation, and that serotonin release. So there’s a lot that happens just by virtue of the breast being in their mouth. When a baby has a shallow latch, they’re using their jaw and their gums to compress the breast, they might be flicking their tongue against the breast or just using the tip of the tongue kind of like a pinball sort of paddle. And that is usually not going to provide much comfort to the mother, it’s going to make it hard for them to extract the milk, they’re going to be pulling that job back, they’re gonna miss that pallet stimulation, and breastfeeding becomes harder work than it has to be. And so your baby tends to not enjoy breastfeeding as much because it’s hard, it’s tiring, it’s challenging. And so maybe they get enough milk and they grow and they gain weight, and they poop and they pee and all the things. But at the end of the day, they’re still lacking those proper mechanics. And we want to give them again, that press you know, breast start of life, Best Start of life,


Jacqueline Kincer  43:46

right into health, but it’s not just about the milk, it’s about that oral anatomy. So most babies are born with a jaw that set back over several months of breastfeeding, that jaw, like I said, goes forward. And so it’s really important for them to be able to do that. So that when it comes time to introduce those solid foods, that they’re able to chew properly, food isn’t spilling out of the mouth, there’s plenty of room for the tongue in the mouth. And then of course, that the teeth come in properly, and all those things later on in life. So I’m a huge proponent of getting the best lapse you can for your baby, for all the reasons because it just it’s multifaceted in terms of keeping your milk production going, making sure they grow and develop well that they swallow properly, that they don’t choke and that they breathe really well.


Hareem Sumbul  44:39

So, oh my God, that’s that’s a lot of information. I’m so glad I asked this question because I think there’s this so much in every aspect of breastfeeding that that helps with so much more than we we really expected or when we’re talking about breastfeeding or you know, when we’re Deciding whether or not to breastfeed or in life and whatever not. And I think that this is the kind of information that even expecting mothers should know, you know, this is because it’s important for them to know that this is this is all that they get, you know, as one big package. As you said, breastfeeding is the best package for everything that one would need are a great start for a baby. But thank you so much for joining us, Jacqueline. And it was absolutely amazing to have you. And I hope we’re going to be doing this again sometime because this was great. And I, I can’t say anything more than that, I think a lot more than I did, just following your Instagram. But I’m so glad we did this. Thank you so much for for us. And thank you


Jacqueline Kincer  45:52

for inviting me. It’s honor an honor to be here. And I just really hope that the sparks, some confidence and maybe even some more good questions from everybody who was able to watch.


Hareem Sumbul  46:07

Absolutely. Thank you so much for being here with us and have


Jacqueline Kincer  46:17

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For World Breastfeeding Week 2021, Hareem from LactNation interviewed Jacqueline Kincer. We talked about all things breastfeeding and answered questions like:

1. Breastmilk as a source of nourishment, let’s talk composition. How does varying composition keep up with the baby and does maternal diet have a role to play?

2. We first connected on baby wearing. What are the different ways baby wearing supports a breastfeeding mother and child?

3. What do you think about the comforting aspect of breastfeeding for the baby. Does that have a role to play?

4. What about the mother? Is the comfort a two way street?

5. Why is comforting so looked down at when we talk about raising small babies.

6. Does oral anatomy and a correct latch have a role to play in nourishment and comfort?