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Episode 28: How Your Subconscious Mind Affects Breastfeeding

September 4, 2020

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Jacqueline Kincer  0:01

Welcome to Episode 28 of The Breastfeeding Talk Podcast. I’m your host, Jacqueline Kincer ibclc. And I actually haven’t done one of these little vocal intros for you guys in a little while, haven’t felt the need to but this episode I’m super excited to bring to you today. Our incredible guest is not necessarily talking about breastfeeding specifically, but some of the challenges that we’re seeing breastfeeding moms face out there. And and she’s just amazing, I don’t want to spoil it for you. But as a little bit of a lead in to this conversation I was having a conversation with several people actually, with colleagues with, people who are studying and getting certified to become ibclcs. And there’s just absolutely this phenomenon out there where women are not seeking help with breastfeeding.


Jacqueline Kincer  1:01

This episode today is going to address some of those reasons why. And I really want you to listen to this if you’re a mother out there and you are struggling with breastfeeding, or something is just not going quite right. Or maybe you’ve landed upon this podcast, because you searched for a podcast on breastfeeding or, you know, a friend sent this your way. And you’re just feeling like you just can’t even go on this episode is really for you. And one of the big takeaways that I really want people to understand is that there’s there’s some of this that we we have a duty to take personal responsibility for. But there’s a lot of this, that we we also have a simultaneous duty to wake up to the programming that has been given to us. And you’ll see what we mean by that when we go through this episode. But I really do feel that there’s systemic things that have just happened where women just are not encouraged to seek this kind of help. They’re not encouraged to hire an ibclc.


Jacqueline Kincer  2:10

They’re not educated on what an ibclc can do for them. They don’t understand the difference between a hospital ibclc and a private practice ibclc. Oftentimes, they tend to think that all lactation consultants are the same that when didn’t help me, why would any other lactation consultant help me? And that’s not necessarily unique to this profession? You know, I think it’s, I think it’s common, right, but but I think there’s a little more grace given to doctors, where people will say, Oh, get a second opinion, why not get a second opinion, when it comes to your lactation consultants, then not to mention all of the false lactation consultants out there who are not actually ibclcs, they don’t actually have clinical training. They are not actual health care providers, but yet they’re here they are practicing health care, without any sort of credential or license. So there’s a lot of things going on. And unfortunately, the research for the most part kind of falls upon your shoulders, right? I’m doing my best as I can to get the word out about certain topics and issues and things in this podcast. And we’re only on Episode 28, I promise you.


Jacqueline Kincer  3:15

There’s there’s hundreds more episodes coming your way. But I really do want people to realize that this is something you need to plan for during pregnancy, you need to get in touch with an ibclc need to make it part of your birth plan. Right? We make all these elaborate birth plans, I want the epidural, I don’t want it I want to birth at home or the hospital, you make all these plans. But it’s like we don’t plan on how we’re going to feed our babies. We don’t plan on what’s going to happen when we encounter feeding challenges. But we do when it comes to birth. And so one of the things I want to encourage you as you listen to this is just I don’t what I don’t want people to do is to walk away feeling guilt or shame. And you’ll really resonate with a lot of things we’re talking about in this episode when it comes to those topics.


Jacqueline Kincer  4:01

Because, again, I don’t want to make it sound like oh, it’s all your fault that you know, breastfeeding isn’t working. No, no, no, no, it’s not. You don’t know what you don’t know. Right? So anyway, I just felt like I wanted to take the topic in a little bit of a different direction, and not make it so much about breastfeeding. But But dive in deeper to what’s going on subconsciously with mothers and their babies and that they’re connected. And so this episode, I’ve got an amazing guest for you guys. Without further ado, here’s the episode in the interview.


Jacqueline Kincer  5:14

Welcome back to another episode of Breastfeeding Talk: Milk, Motherhood and Mindset. I have a really really good friend of mine here with us today and I’m so happy the special person is here on the podcast. Her name is Ilyse Soutine and she is a subconscious transformation coach and the creator of the subconscious shift method. And she helps online entrepreneurs and coaches reprogram limiting subconscious beliefs that hold them back so they can become authentically aligned with what they were born to contribute to this world. And Elise’s signature methodology. The subconscious shift method is really designed to tap into the subconscious mind using brain science, subconscious reprogramming ancient wisdom, Amma somatic to help shift old imprinted, limiting subconscious beliefs and stories. She’s also a frequent contributor to the online magazine Thrive global, and has been featured on many podcasts, including the daring woman and the mind flipping podcast. And I’m so honored that she’s here with us today, she’s really going to fill in the mindset portion of the podcast. So welcome, Ilyse.


Ilyse Soutine  6:22

Thank you so much for having me, I’m really excited to be here.


Jacqueline Kincer  6:26

I am too. And it’s really cool that our listeners are going to get to know you because I know you and I feel like they’re missing out if they don’t have you in their lives. So I’ll definitely link up some of your Thrive global articles too, because they’re so good. They’re they’re too good not to share. But you might be wondering why brought her on. And it’s because she knows and deals with so much this, you know, ability to shift the subconscious mind so many times we don’t realize exactly how these things are playing out in our lives. So you know, everybody knows there’s a subconscious mind and the conscious mind, but you don’t always know how those things are playing out. And I’d love for you to maybe just give an overview of wherever you want to take it. Honestly, I’ll let you take the lead but the subconscious mind and how it’s affecting us.


Ilyse Soutine  7:16

Yes, thank you, I always like to start off having this kind of conversation around the subconscious mind with a scientific fact. And that is that it controls 95% of our behavior. And that is something to really consider. And, and so the subconscious mind we develop these imprints from early childhood. And actually, from the ages of zero to the age of seven, a child’s brain is in a theta, brainwave state. And in that theta, brainwave state, they really don’t know the difference between reality and imagination. And that’s where the reality can run wild. And, and you as you know, with children, they live in a really, they have a rich imagination that they and the world that they live in, but there’s really no discernment between the quote unquote real world and their imagination. And the same is with the subconscious mind. It doesn’t really know the difference between reality and what you tell it to believe.


Ilyse Soutine  8:31

But the thing is, within this period of zero to seven, a lot of beliefs are imprinted, become imprinted in the subconscious mind. And it affects us well into adulthood. So for instance, trying to give an example, well, you know, we’re thinking I’m going to use it on a positive note, I have this friend who has this amazing daughter, and she’s around three years old right now. And what she tells her all the time, is that she’s a strong and powerful woman. She’s a strong and powerful woman. And even when I’m around her, and you know, she’s struggling with something, I’ll just say, Oh, you’re a strong, powerful woman. It’s just like, or I’ll, if I’m struggling with someone, something and I’m in front of her, I’ll just say, Well, I’m a strong, powerful woman. So that’s becoming embedded in her subconscious mind, so that later on as an adult, that will be her default. So she’s in a situation where she’s being challenged, or where she needs to be brave. Her default now is that she’s a strong and powerful woman, and I just thought it was really, really brilliant that we can actually imprint really powerful and positive beliefs into our children at such an early age. Ah, and that becomes your default as an adult. So that’s just an example. And of course, the opposite is true, right? So the opposite is true. But I would prefer in this instance, to focus on the positive and just to have people keep that in mind.


Jacqueline Kincer  10:17

I was so glad you shared that. Because so often, in my work with families, it’s really important to me that we don’t say certain things about the baby, like, I don’t ever use language. And some moms are just told this, right? So they’ll be telling you what some, you know, other health care professional will say, Oh, well, he’s a, he’s a lazy baby, or He’s fussy all the time, or, you know, these just sort of absolute things. And it’s almost like, you know, we’re personifying these traits onto our babies, which is like, Well, how do we actually know that?


Jacqueline Kincer  10:57

And I had a woman today even send me a message. And she said that she was told that her baby was a wimpy, white boy. And that’s shocking. I only share it because it’s literally what she was told. And it’s like, what if the baby overhears that? No. And there’s so little, and sometimes we think, Oh, they they don’t have that language perception there. Butlike, you just gave us powerful example of the three year old, the positive programming that she is receiving, which is really amazing. But it starts, starts in the womb.


Ilyse Soutine  11:34

Absolutely starts in the womb, and there’s so much scientific evidence around that it starts in the womb. And we absolutely must be careful with what we say in front of babies. And to really be mindful of absolutes, you know, we we tend to want to, especially in the medical community, I’m guessing is to speak in absolutes? Right, because it’s coming from a place of science, right, I guess. And so it’s just the tendency to speak in absolutes. And I think that’s, there’s a danger in that there’s absolutely a danger in that. So I’m glad you brought that up.


Jacqueline Kincer  12:15

Yeah, and I agree, I see that a lot. And it’s, it’s always like a weird part of my job being, you know, kind of medical, and then, you know, kind of not just very holistic, and some moms will just want to know an answer, right? They want the absolute to, you know, what, am I making enough milk for my baby or not? And I’m like, I honestly don’t know, like, I’m kind of confused. And it’s not because I don’t have years of experience. It’s not because I don’t own a scale. It’s like, well, today, I would say, I think yes, but potentially you might not be and I also feel like, like a doctor sort of pressured into the absolute right like to, to provide a diagnosis, you know, because otherwise, they can’t really close out your file or or, you know, really give you a specific, you know, here’s what to do, or prescription or whatever. And seems like we’re conditioned that we as a society where now there’s a feedback loop where where the patient wants the absolute and the provider gives the absolute and then, you know, how do we sort of break that mold? I see it so often.


Jacqueline Kincer  13:29

So I also I love even just talking about this in terms of infants, and we can continue talking about that. But, you know, as you were describing just the mind and how we’re programmed, I can’t help but think back on my own childhood and wonder, you know, what were the things that I remember being told, and how has that shaped me today is, as a woman, as a mother, all the things, and I’m sure there’s listeners thinking those same things going, huh? What did my parents told me as a kid? No. So I’d love for you to chat some more about that.


Ilyse Soutine  13:59

Right? Well, I think it’s very mindful to take some time and maybe just even just journal, eat before you fall asleep. If you’re not too tired. And just to review, remind yourself of what you were exposed to, as a child, what you heard about life in general, like you know about money about love about anything that you can think of that really kind of affected you. And you might want to journal like, situations from when you were really young, have that really stand out in your mind that made an impression. For instance, if you’re told that you can’t do math, if you had a teacher tell you at a really early age that you can’t do math, you’re not good at math, then you’re going to hold that belief and you’re not going to be good at math. And there was a scenario where this was the case. For a little girl, she was told that she wasn’t good at math. And then she ended up having a tutor.


Ilyse Soutine  15:07

And she, as it turned out, she was actually really good at math. And so that tutor helped her to break down that belief that she wasn’t. And so it’s really important to go through our, our childhood and really pick out what what was said around us that made an impression, I’m sure there’s always some sort of scenario that we can recollect. It made an impression on us, it didn’t make us feel really good. And I, you know, I have a scenario myself where I had a dog when I was really young, and the dog ended up getting sick, and I nursed it as best as I could. But my dog ended up dying. And I thought it was my fault that she died that I didn’t take good enough care of her. And so the subconscious beliefs that became imprinted. Due to that story from when I was a little girl was that if I were to help people, something bad was going to happen to them. So that’s an example. And you know, when I say the subconscious, mind effects 95% of our behavior that includes the influences, the decisions that we make, the habits that we have, it shows up in forms of procrastination, are really reprimanding self talk, the way we talk to ourselves, is so important. And I think, once we come aware of our self talk and our habits that are self sabotaging, we can begin to, to change them. But the first step is, is awareness. And then to have a willingness to change things, because you can you’re actually very powerful, you can change things.


Jacqueline Kincer  17:02

I like that you said that because it’s it’s, you know, I don’t want anyone to listen and go, Oh, I’m doing my subconscious is terrible. And, you know, I’m doing to this life of, you know, self sabotage, because you’re not, you’re not, and I can testify to that, you know, I’ve why I’ve worked with Elise and shifted some things, subconsciously. And honestly, there’s there’s many ways to go about doing it. But it’s, we are powerful, like you said, and what I see so much in my work. And a big topic I wanted to talk about was when I work with moms who, you know, it sounds like a bold word to use, but they don’t realize that they are committing some self sabotage, where they even just start out with the question, hey, here’s what’s going on. And you know, I’m not sure if you can help me. And that’s one of those little subconscious phrases, they don’t really realize. They said, I’m not sure if you can help me, they’re already sort of saying, I bet you can’t help me. Yeah.


Jacqueline Kincer  18:04

And it, you know, it’s heartbreaking. Right? And so they, you know, and then this idea that, I don’t know, how we got here is a culture. And no, I think there’s, there’s some blame in the the phrasing and things that was met with good intentions. But this breast is best kind of idea, which, you know, I don’t see that phrase used other than when people criticize breastfeeding. So I’m not sure how we still, it’s still there on a subconscious level, culturally. So when women internalize that, and they do anything other than feeding into breasts, they feel this deep shame. And they feel this guilt, or if for any reason, they think that breastfeeding might not be working out, they feel like a failure, or they feel like their body has failed them. Which is so not the case. Right? And it’s, I can see how we go there. And even if we watch things like, oh, gosh, you know, if anyone is into Joe Dispenza, and or if you’ve seen a documentary he’ll, where the guy visualizes his spine, repairing and healing, and then he’s able to walk. I mean, our minds are so incredible. And so if we tell ourselves, my milk is drying up, and my body is failing me and all of these things, well, guess what shows up in real life, right? And it’s not we don’t want anyone to feel bad about themselves, but how can we shift that? How can we, you know, what, maybe a few questions, how can we shift out but also why why are we internalizing these feelings? And really just being so hard on ourselves? Is this from childhood or where are we getting this from?


Ilyse Soutine  19:42

It was a really important questions to ask answer and I believe, I think you know, when you said we are internalizing, and that’s really very much the case because our society you know, new mothers are so incredibly vulnerable, it’s probably the most vulnerable, you could be as a new mother. And we new mothers have a lot going against them, right? Because you have the external society telling them, okay, this is the standard, this is what you should should should be doing, this is what you’re going you this is what you need to measure yourself. Against, right? It’s a very patriarchal, dictatorial way of living, which is unfortunate. And I think that’s changing. And so it creates.


Ilyse Soutine  20:34

So if you don’t measure up in any way to the standards that are given to you, then you’re going to feel as if you’re a failure, as if you’re just not enough. And you’re going to feel an amount of an incredible amount of shame around that. Even if you’re kind of aware of it or not, it’s, you’re going to feel that and, and also, yes, I mean, if you a lot of women that I work with, and a lot of women in general, and this also comes from the social conditioning is that we’re kind of conditioned to not be enough, you know, because we’re conditioned, as young women, as women in general, to be preoccupied with how we look, and how our bodies should look, our bodies should, there’s an ideal body, that if we, if we don’t measure up to that ideal body that again, is dictated to us, then we’re going to feel lacking in some way, right, we’re going to feel lack in some way. So the vast majority of women that I’ve worked with, usually get down to the nitty gritty of what’s really underneath most things, most women do not feel good enough. Yeah, and so those two things combined with the external, external dictations.


Ilyse Soutine  21:53

And then your internal combined with the internal feelings of being feeling like you’re a failure are not good enough. It just is not. It’s going to create so much frustration and so much pain and suffering. But there, but the good thing is, is that we are so resilient, and we’re so flexible, the blue, as we all know, the brain is plastic, the subconscious is so easily, easily reprogrammed. Because there again, it doesn’t know the difference between reality and imagination. It just takes a little bit of work. But I want to come back to what I mentioned before as how you can change things. And I think it’s really important. There’s many things that I can say right now, I just, but one of the things is to really pause if you feel yourself. In a state where you are feeling really bad about yourself to just pause, you can even say something like stop or pause to yourself, and just give yourself Self Compassion. You know, there isn’t a manual as to how to be the best mom, you know, for you specifically to be the best mom, right? And the thing to keep in mind is that no matter what, as a mother, you were doing the very best that you can, period. And you can’t do any better than that.


Jacqueline Kincer  23:22

And that’s a good point. I’m so glad you said that. Because I, I really, really want moms to hear that. Like, really, really you. It’s like we we find ourselves doing this thing where we think there’ll be some you know that we know that the future we quote unquote, know, the future version of us will know better, and we almost measure ourselves against that. But it’s like, well, we’re not that future version yet. So how could we possibly, we cannot time travel and take that information and bring it back to today and utilize it. So I want people to really hear that, like you are doing the best that you can with all the resources and everything you have in this moment.


Ilyse Soutine  24:06

Absolutely. And if you imagine what a child goes through, as they’re starting to learn to work, they get up and they fall down, they get up, they fall down, they don’t beat themselves up. They don’t get they don’t, they don’t quit, right. They just get up and they fall down and they get up and they fall down. And so you wouldn’t want your child to be sitting Oh, I’m just I suck at walking, you know, just and feel bad about themselves if you can. So as a tool to just imagine a child trying to do the best that they can. And you’re you know, to help you make a bridge for that. If it’s really hard for you to really grasp what that you’re doing the best that you can just imagine a child kind of struggling at something and to have compassion for that child. You’re going to have compassion for that child. You’re not going to reprimand that child for not walking by a certain date? Right. So that’s one tip that I wanted to throw in.


Ilyse Soutine  25:09

The other way to really, truly empower yourself as a mother, especially around breastfeeding, or really anything related to motherhood, is to really become aware of your self talk. Really kind of be mindful of what are you saying to yourself? In those most painful moments? What are you saying to yourself? What is the dialogue? So the first step is awareness. And then the second step is, okay, so what would be? What would you prefer to be feeling? What kind of approach would you like to have? What would you like? What are some loving and compassionate things you can tell yourself, because ultimately, you will free yourself from suffering, if you begin to have a compassionate and loving dialogue with yourself. So something’s not going right. Just say, Okay, right now, I’m doing the best that I can. And it’s not working right now. But maybe tomorrow, it’ll be better. You know, just like what you said, Well, you’re, you’re producing enough milk today. But, you know, tomorrow may be another thing. And so I think it’s just really, really important to really cultivate self compassion and love. And that is the first step to empowering yourself. And your child will actually pick that up, they will pick up the love and compassion that you are having for yourself, they will pick that up. So you will be modeling that for your child in a subconscious way. Which is even more beautiful and powerful.


Jacqueline Kincer  26:50

I like that you’re mentioning that because there’s so much subconscious communication that goes on between the mother and her child. And even I don’t always like to say this, like, we don’t know this, for sure. But in my experience, it seems to be that when a mother and child are breastfeeding, it’s just I try to tell moms, it’s not just the milk, it’s not just the nutrition, there’s just so much going on there. I mean, on a physiological level, absolutely. But on an energetic level, I mean, they’re at the your there is a part of your body that is literally flowing into your child’s body. I mean, it’s just crazy, right? So yeah, you know, we know there’s science now that says that we affect our own cells with our thoughts, and then you’re giving those cells to your baby. So how much is happening there? Physically, non physically, whatever that even means. And it’s just, when we can get mindful of that. I know, there’s a lot of moms out there who kind of intuitively know this, like, they don’t want to show stress around their babies. But at the same time, it’s like, they’re not really eliminating their stress. They’re just pretending in the moment. But not really, you know, working through or eliminating the stress. And I think you brought up some really, really good points about that.


Ilyse Soutine  28:11

Yeah, and I also want to, I also want to point out the fact that it’s okay to ask for help, you know, we, as women have, in general have a really hard time asking for help for a number of reasons, a number of reasons. We don’t want to be perceived as being weak, or not knowledgeable enough or not blank enough, right here, the not enough comes up. And it’s just, you know, it takes a village. And not to sound corny, but we need each other. We need community, we need help. And there’s nothing. There’s nothing wrong with asking for help. And in fact, it’s a very powerful it’s an act of strength to, to ask for help. It’s an act of strength and empowerment, to ask for help. Because to not ask for help when you need it is disempowering, and it doesn’t help anyone or anything or solve anything, right. But we’re just so conditioned, our behavior is conditioned to the point where, you know, this is a deal that if you’re asking for help, you’re weak or you’re lacking in some way. And that’s not the case at all.


Jacqueline Kincer  29:24

I think you hit on something really important that I encounter so often in my work, because there was a thread going on with some professionals on LinkedIn that sort of popped up in my feed. I don’t really spend time on there probably should but just logged on to accept a friend request or something like that. And it was about you know, breastfeeding rates and this and that and, oh, it was also about oh, okay, it was an article Sorry, I just kind of forgot for a moment but it was an article about breastfeeding rates and how with the pandemic that women were not getting as much breastfeeding support as they need. And I read that article scratching my head going. There’s not like less breastfeeding support available to you, though, like nothing has shifted in that domain at all. So why? Why is there a perception out there, that just because you can’t do XY and Z, that that’s somehow also closed off to you.


Jacqueline Kincer  30:29

And and I just want to, you know, even for like logistical shapes, sake, clarify this, that, you know, there are still lactation consultants working in the hospitals, the hospitals are not closed, women are still going there to birth babies. So there are lactation consultants that are still working everything and get magically laid off because COVID happened. And then there are those of us in private practice, who have not just closed up shop and have even expanded our offerings to work with people virtually or, you know, take extra precautions to come to your home or have you to come to our office. And it was just so interesting, because I just asked the questions all amongst professionals. And I said, Why is it that we don’t see articles published about how much help is available to moms, because counting myself and every other colleague that I’m in touch with on LinkedIn that I’ve trained, that are in my local area, they’re all hurting for business, we literally have teams of people across the world that are ready with open arms, seriously hoping that you will contact us for help, and you don’t, and I don’t want to play like a blame game or anything. But it’s also easily explained by everything you’re saying, which really comes down to that. We’re just not asking for help.


Jacqueline Kincer  31:40

And, and there definitely arguments, you know, you can get it are well, not everybody has financial resources, right, but a lot of people do. And those people still aren’t getting the help. And there’s obviously a block there. And it’s clearly a subconscious block. Because we could do all these information campaigns, people know, we exist, it’s not like they don’t know, but I always have this, like, 90% of the time. They work with someone and they, then they feel this guilt and shame. You know, because of everything, we’re saying that they go, Oh, I should have contacted you months ago or weeks ago. And I’m like, Well, you know what, but you contact me now. And that’s all that matters. And I just, my heart hurts so that I want women to stop saying I should have done this months ago. Yeah. Or then it’s already too late. I get a lot of that too on Instagram or something. They say, Oh, my goodness, I wish I’d found your podcasts, you know, so much earlier, I just ended up winning. And, you know, I probably could have continued had, I had help. It’s like you had eight months. But you know, and again, not blaming, I am not blaming any mom. But this is why the subconscious things that are going on.


Ilyse Soutine  32:48

Absolutely 100% 100%. And then you know, speaking of the guilt and shame, it’s like that also comes from society. We’re indoctrinated, you know, mothers who are supposed to be know, everything, you know, and if you don’t, then you need to feel guilt and shame, right, you need to measure up to these standards. And if you don’t, you’re going to be feeling guilt and shame if you shouldn’t need to have to ask for help. And if you do, then, you know, you’re feeling guilt and shame. It’s just, it’s, it’s really a lot of the guilt and shame that you know, I don’t want to point this out is that mothers feel is not entirely their fault. It’s not entirely their fault. There’s, we have this really distorted sense of motherhood in our in our society and what it should be and who mother’s need to be. And it’s just, it’s, it’s not real, and it doesn’t serve anyone, it doesn’t serve the reality of people’s lives and people’s unique situations. And, and so, you know, I just don’t also want to point that out that even if one is harboring guilt and shame, it’s not entirely your fault. And and this is why it’s so important to cultivate self compassion, self compassion, self compassion, and to remember, even you can even use this as a mantra. You know, I’m a big fan of mantras, you know, to help support you through shifting your way of being. And so you can have a mantra come up with a mantra is that you can be as simple as I am doing the best that I can right now, in this moment. I’m doing the best that I can to just give some compassion and create some space for yourself in a moment when you are really feeling a lot of pain. Guilt. Shame. Hmm.


Jacqueline Kincer  34:45

I love that. Know what this is. Not like to be a shameless plug, but I just remembered, there’s a little outro that plays at the end of every podcast episode. And you can actually go literally download some mantra that I’ve recorded for breastfeeding, it’s totally free. And we’re gonna link up something really cool that Elise has for free as well. But it’s just 38 powerful breastfeeding mantras, it’s super relaxing music, it’s yours truly narrating it. So you don’t like my voice, don’t download it. But um, it’s yours, it’s free. And I put it out there. Because if you like listening to podcasts, things that empower you, you probably would like listening to something like that. So if you if you’re having trouble coming up with one of your own, I would encourage you to download that and check that out or do both, whatever, whatever works.


Ilyse Soutine  35:32

Exactly. And if you’re going to choose one to have as you go about your day, pick, pick one, that mantra that really stands out for you that really resonates and lands in your body. And I also think it’d be good to listen to Jacqueline’s mantras on a consistent basis, because one of the ways in which we program the subconscious mind is through rapid tician. And consistency, and most importantly, feeling right. And so when, when one, B, starts to create an awareness around yourself talk, and then you can bring in your your mantra when you’re feeling you know, so if you’re feeling really bad, you can bring in the mantra, I’m doing the very best that I can in this moment. And then just to cultivate the awareness of your behavior and your self talk, and you will eventually shift things, you know, listening to Jacqueline’s mantras on a consistent basis as best you can I know you’re very busy, may even do it while you’re breastfeeding. And that helps to that will definitely help to to shift your subconscious around the stress that you may feel around breast


Jacqueline Kincer  36:42

feeding. Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, I can’t recommend it enough. And I had a colleague of mine, a midwife, who’s also a meditation teacher, and she recorded an audio that I’ll give to my clients when they have this issue if they have plugged ducts, or mastitis. And it’s, it’s like a hypnosis audio basically. And I remember when I listened to it at when she recorded, she sent it to me and said, Hey, let me know what you think coming up needs to be changed, like, Well, I’m not the, I’m not the expert here. So, you know, but it was so beautiful. And I remember, you know, I was I was breastfeeding my second child, I listened to it. And as I’m listening to it, this milk just started to leak like it was working, you know, on a cellular level. So I just want to encourage moms, you know, to say these things to yourself when you’re breastfeeding, or listen to these things, or, you know, you’re having a tough mothering moment or your, your your grandma’s out, again, telling you how that baby needs some formula. And you got to fatten it up. Like just, you know, it’s like, if anyone’s watched Seinfeld, George would always say serenity. Now, when he would be really frustrated, it’s like, maybe you have a little, a little mantra there that you throw in whenever you’re feeling those things. And I actually do use serenity now. Because it makes me laugh. Like, if I’m in traffic, or you know, and I just whatever. So maybe someone will pick up on that too. But I love everything you’re saying.


Jacqueline Kincer  38:13

Because I think if we can clue ourselves in right to these patterns, no one else will not no one else can really do this for us. But really, we have to kind of do the work, we were the ones who know what we’re thinking. And we have to become aware of our thinking. And if we don’t become aware of it, well, then it’s like a runaway train. And then there’s just all these high rates of postpartum depression and anxiety and rage. Now that’s a thing. And so like you said, that self compassion, almost it’s like we find ourselves in that now someone gets the the diagnosis of postpartum anxiety and depression. And now there’s even less self compassion, you know, and so we have to really just, or sometimes it’s the diagnosis that ultimately leads to them, creating compassion, because they have a name, they have a label, and they can say, okay, there’s something going on with me. But you’re not trapped in that either.


Jacqueline Kincer  39:05

Yeah. And and I think, you, you brought up something really good about the mantras. I like that you said, come up with something or choose one that works for you. Because I like that we have these positive messages I see floating around on social media, like little memes, you know, but it’s like someone else telling you what to think. And we’re not all those, like under seven year olds, where we could just be told what to think. And we internalize like, we think, Oh, that’s a really great meme. I’ll save that or I’ll share that and it’s great. But if it doesn’t, if it’s not really something that resonates with you, like what’s the what’s the necklace? No bad or are all good vibes or only good vibes are something, it’s great. I love that message. You know, but guess what life is not only good vibes. And so when you have them what we don’t want to happen is that you have a bad vibe one day and now it’s just oh, I’ve screwed up.


Ilyse Soutine  40:03

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, there is so much scientific evidence between the mind and body connection. And I love how you pointed out with yourself you how you just made your milk flow through thinking and it’s so true. I mean, hypnosis does has that effect. We are just keep in mind is that we are incredibly plastic, you know, it’s it, nothing is set in stone, no way of thinking, no way of being no habit, no, we’re perceiving is stuck in stone. So just keep that in mind. And the thing is, is that as a mother, I know that I can’t imagine all that you have going on it how things can at sometimes feel so overwhelming. It’s like what I have to start watching my thoughts now on top of everything. But ultimately, the thing with this is that it’s a life. It’s a life tool that you will have for the rest of your life. And you’ll be able to teach your children this incredibly powerful tool to have a nurturing dialogue with themselves and nurturing, compassionate, loving dialogue with themselves. It’s really powerful.


Ilyse Soutine  41:17

Most of us, most humans beat ourselves up, we’re constantly beating ourselves up. And, you know, and it’s thought, again, I want to point out that it’s not entirely our fault, we have been conditioned through our society, to think that way to be that way. And just keep in mind, nothing is set in stone, and it is worse, the little bit of effort. Even though you may feel incredibly overwhelmed, it’s okay not to get it all the time, it’s just do the best that you can by becoming called cultivating an awareness of the relationship that you have with yourself. It’s really powerful, it will serve you for the rest of your life, it will serve you in your relationships, it will just serve you forever. It’s very powerful.


Jacqueline Kincer  42:05

Ah, so good. And as you’re saying this, I’m it’s like it’s healing something in me, because I know my husband, I’ve had this discussion many times where we’ve noticed our son, he’s now seven, and he’s just very, very hard on himself. And I’m like, that is just so I can’t understand why we are not hard on him at all. We give him so much compassion, it does not need to be perfect. You’re only seven, we don’t expect you to get it right. And then I probably was the conversation I had with you that I realized, I internally, subconsciously, I’m so hard on myself. Obviously, my son has picked up on that. And so it’s like, it’s like do as I say not as I do. Right? And it’s like, I am not showing myself the same compassion that I show my children. And even though I’m showing them compassion, they’re gonna model what is happening on my own subconscious level. Yeah. So we really do have to do the work if that’s a good enough example for you guys out there. And it wasn’t, it wasn’t when I had the realization like, Oh, I’m a bad mom, because I’m so hard on myself. No, it was like, Oh, this all makes sense. Now, I’m so glad I know. And now it really point out to me the importance of needing to do the work.


Ilyse Soutine  43:28

Yes, thank you so much for sharing that. It’s really amazing. And, you know, 80 83% of communication is nonverbal, you know? Oh, so, yeah, it’s mind boggling. It’s really powerful. That’s, you know, I’m so glad you shared that story. It’s really, really powerful.


Jacqueline Kincer  43:52

It is what you said about nonverbal communication. You know, it’s funny, I’ve heard this argument from people that don’t have a clue about babies or breastfeeding role. They’ll say, Well, once they’re old enough to start asking for it, you know, you shouldn’t breastfeed him anymore, referring to toddlers, nursing or whatever. And I’m like, you know, that babies always asking for it, right? Like, they don’t have to talk to ask for it. And every breastfeeding mom knows that, right? I mean, and I, when I teach moms early hunger cues, it’s like, did your baby you look at you, that means they’re hungry. And just even those, you know, the hands, the mouth and all these nonverbal things that we as moms have to rewire our brains to learn that nonverbal communication because they’re going to be talking for at least a year or so. And even if they say a first word, it’s still not, you know, real communication yet. So I think what you said there is so important that we leave sometimes we become these like finely tuned readers of that communication. But we also have to remember that we’re writing back without communication.


Ilyse Soutine  44:56

Yes, absolutely.


Jacqueline Kincer  44:58

Oh, I could just talk to you for hours. And I’m sure everyone could listen for hours, I did want to highlight something that is just really cool. And I kind of mentioned something earlier when I was talking about the mantra thing. But lease is giving guys a special gift. And it’s a free hypnosis for anxiety. So I will link that up in the show notes. But if you can’t wait to go swipe over to look at those, it’s mind peace. And I listened to it, it’s beautiful. And I think even if you don’t feel like you have anxiety, and it doesn’t mean that you need to be clinically diagnosed with it, by all means we all have anxious feelings at different times, I would really suggest that you go give it a listen. Because I mean, if you want to call it stress, if you want to call it overwhelm whatever label you want to give it, I really feel like this hypnosis, audio is very, very powerful. And everything that you’ve heard her discussing today is sort of sets you on a path. Like if you’re wondering where where do I start, if the subconscious mind can be reprogrammed? How do I do that? Hypnosis is a really, really effective way to do that.


Ilyse Soutine  46:12

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I honor, it’s my honor to to give this to your audience.


Jacqueline Kincer  46:21

Yeah, it’s, I mean, that’s really beautiful. And I just have to thank you so much. Because I know there’s a lot of work that goes into making these things. And speaking of, you know, self compassion. I know, when I recorded the mantras for people, I was very worried. And I did a lot of drafts of it, so. But it’s okay, if you don’t like it, too. I’m okay with that. Yeah, you know, I think that’s what we have to be okay with. And, you know, I, I have so much more compassion for my mom now as a mom, because, like you said, we’re all doing the best we can. And I think, oh, man, I, you know, there’s things that I’m like, I would never want to do that as a mom. And it’s like, well, at least I was taught something right about mothering from my mom, whether it was something I wanted to emulate or not, there’s some conscious things I pick up on now that I’ve become aware of, but also, I just have, I just have so much compassion, when you know, thinking about the time we lived in, and that we didn’t have internet access.


Jacqueline Kincer  47:25

And we didn’t have all of these same things where, you know, now, there’s so many more resources and, and she was actively discouraged from breastfeeding. And so sometimes we, we find our, you know, we can heal ourselves and heal relationships with past generations, and the future ones too. And I just, I love all this stuff. I think it’s really great. You know, as you’ve just, you know, what I want? What I hear a lot on social media. And when I asked a question kind of leading up to this interview today, you know, people who shared with me a lot of different scenarios about their struggles with breastfeeding and how it impacted them mentally and emotionally. But the underlying theme was always this external comparison. And I just would love for you to leave us with some thoughts on that.


Ilyse Soutine  48:21

The external comparison. I think it’s really important to make a distinction between what you’re seeking and what you’re feeling to what you’re being told you should be feeling or doing, or being, you know, I think that’s the first step into really taking your power back, is to recognize that you are given a standard by which you are to measure yourself as a mother. And once you begin to recognize that, then it’s the first step to really empowering yourself into really cultivating an understanding as to well, what do you want? Or what are you actually feeling in your body? What is right for you and your baby, regardless of what paradigm is being dictated to you?


Jacqueline Kincer  49:26

Yeah, that’s very powerful. And it goes all always right. I mean, if you are feeling pressured to breastfeed, but it’s something you just feel is very wrong for you, then you need to listen to that. And I don’t know that there’s a lot of lactation consultants out there that sort of have that paradigm with them. But I think it’s really important that we do because ultimately, you know, where it’s not going to go well if you’re doing it for someone else. and hating every moment of it. So, yeah. Oh, I just love that so much. I’m so glad. Ah, you just, you know, what I really hope that people hear in this episode is just the theme of self compassion. I think yes. And you know what? I will tell you guys Elise has a lot of self compassion. So just like it comes through in her voice. So if you just energetically don’t even know the word she’s saying, but you listen this episode, I think you’re just going to have some anyway, so Oh, you’re


Ilyse Soutine  50:30

so sweet. You know, I want to, I want to just share something very quickly, about self compassion, because in my own kind of just journey to self compassion. You know, there was a time in my life, when I literally could not get out of bed, I suffered from so much from severe anxiety and depression, I couldn’t get out of bed, I was completely PTSD, you name it, I couldn’t. For a lot of mornings, I literally could not get out of bed. And I remember telling myself, You are pathetic, you cannot even get out of bed. You’re pathetic, right. And that was a word that was one of the words that I used to tell myself. And. And now in retrospect, I realized that that was the best I could do. You know. So even though when we tell ourselves, this is the best, this is the best I can do.


Ilyse Soutine  51:22

I can’t get out of bed, what. But that’s the thing is that, in retrospect, I have so much compassion for myself. Because literally, when in those moments in that time, in the past, when I could not get out of bed, that was the best that I could do. So I just wanted to bring up this example, I felt was really important to bring up this example for self compassion. Because even still, when we’re trying to cultivate self compassion, we still might have a really, really hard time by saying, but I, but I can’t, but I can’t, right, as opposed to just completely accepting yourself, where you are, in that moment, no matter what, just to just to have so much self compassion for yourself. I just really felt like it was very important to share that because, you know, there, there are those of us who who have may have a hard time even wrapping our head around what self compassion really is, and how to translate that and, and well, I can’t move. So how can I? Like, how can I have compassion for myself. So I just really wanted to point that out that really just accepting where you are, is the with Grace is the epitome of self compassion, no matter what, no matter where you are, you are doing the best that you can. Hmm, that is


Jacqueline Kincer  52:49

just such an excellent, just way to illustrate that and a good way to distinguish what self compassion is. And I think I see it a lot. Like if I, you know, I show up to like a client’s home and just the home is just so neatly put together and beautifully designed, and the mom has just gorgeous makeup and nails and hair and, and that’s all really, really great. But then in my time with her, I find out that she is struggling so much. And I’ve even had women say something like, Well, you know, I just, I just needed to feel like I did something they use. So I got ready. It’s the first time I’ve gotten ready since having a baby. And it’s like, oh, but self compassion doesn’t look like self care. Like it isn’t about, you know, spending an extra long time in the shower in the bathroom, treating yourself. It’s really about going, you know, that’s just too much for me to do today. And I’m not going to do it. I’m going to do what I can do, and not over force it because even though it might temporarily give you this high that you look in the mirror and you think oh, it externally I look so beautiful. But it’s like, what are we feeling inside? Or what are we avoiding feeling when we go do those things? So I really love that you brought that up? Yeah, thank you


Ilyse Soutine  54:10

for bringing that up, too. I just think it’s really important to just draw on examples to illustrate to help people really grasp the concept of self compassion as much as possible, because it’s so important.


Jacqueline Kincer  54:24

And I think it’s like the most important. Well, this is an excellent place to end because I think you’ve just really said it. So thank you, Elise, for sharing all of your just wisdom and insights and everything with us. And for anyone who wants to get in touch with her get her audio, follow her on social media. I’ll make sure to link everything up in the show notes.


Ilyse Soutine  54:51

Thank you so much, Jacqueline. It’s been such an honor to be here with it.



In this incredible episode, I’m interviewing Ilyse Soutine, subconscious transformation coach and creator of the Subconscious Shift Call. We are taking the breastfeeding conversation in a totally different direction with our discussion of external standards, feelings of guilt and shame, and how our subconscious programming conditions us to doubt ourselves.

I know there’s a lot of self-help motivational type of content out there, but you can’t just tell yourself how to think. There’s a deeper layer of our consciousness that we need to address. Ilyse shares some amazing ideas for cultivating self-compassion, undoing our own destructive mental programming and honoring the sacredness of motherhood.

In this episode, you’ll hear:

  • How the subconscious mind controls 95% of our behavior
  • From ages 0-7 your child’s brain is in a theta brain wave state (doesn’t know difference between reality and imagination)
  • How breastfeeding programs your child’s subconscious mind for life
  • How your own subconscious programming is affecting your breastfeeding and mothering journey
  • Ways to create awareness of your subconscious self and shift your mental programming